Implementation of CIC decision

[sngupta]

Dear Sir,
The public authorities are avoiding the applications of RTI through variuos means. Specially some officers of BSNL (A Govt of India Enterprises) do not want to supply the informations and deteriorating the information seekers. I am enclosing the proof of deterioration by PIO BSNL. 1.Whenever any organisation declares the CPIO, PIO and APIO then an applicant may submit the application to any of them or not.
2. Whenever any applicant having employee employer relations then RTI 2005 is disallowing the benefit available due to his employment.

[kushal]

Hello

1. The application can be submitted to ACPIO or to PIO, the only difference is the time the reply you will get. When submitting to ACPIO, 35 days and directly to PIO; 30 days.
2. Can you be more specific, do you mean can a employee ask for information under RTI from his employer?

[sngupta]

My question is this that the benefits available to emplyee from employer have been restricted by RTI 2005. In RTI it is written any indian citizen may ask information under RTI and get the information from his own expenditure. In my case I am employee of BSNL and I want to inspect the records as per orders of CIC. In our service rules it is written that I may be allowed TA/DA in case deputed by BSNL. My PIO is saying me to inspect the recorda at various places and on the order of PIO I visit the places I am entitle TA/DA. Even on any kind of enquiry facing by a Govt. servant he is entitle for TA/DA.
Two problems are being faced by me:-
1. My PIO unnecessarily deteriorating me for submission the request in view of decision through proper channel.
2. He don not want actually to inspect the recods so that he is asking time and date from me. Being employment I am unable to say when I may inspect the records because the leave sanctioning authority is also my employer. The records may be inspected in case the PIO want to get inspected the records. Please tell me the provisions available and what I can do in this situation.

[colnrkurup]

Your employer not having detailed you for any duty to fulfill your own requirement, you are not entitled for any TA/DA for inspection of documents you had sought under RTI Act. Your PIO did not order you to go and inspect the documents. On the other hand you had asked for inspection and the PIO had intimated to you only where and when it is available. You are at full liberty in not carrying out the inspection in this case whereas if you had been detailed by your superior officer for inspection of any official duties you are duty bound to obey him. In that case you are entitled for TA/DA Allotment of the date, time and place of availability of the documents for your inspection is the prerogative of the publicauthority/CPIO. Incidentally, the entire issue of allowing use of RTI Act by public servants are under examination. In case the information you need is very important, I suggest, better you avail the existing benefit, and inspect it by availing leave and incurring expenses lest you may miss this opportunity.

[ganpat1956]

Originally Posted by sngupta

My question is this that the benefits available to emplyee from employer have been restricted by RTI 2005. In RTI it is written any indian citizen may ask information under RTI and get the information from his own expenditure. In my case I am employee of BSNL and I want to inspect the records as per orders of CIC. In our service rules it is written that I may be allowed TA/DA in case deputed by BSNL. My PIO is saying me to inspect the recorda at various places and on the order of PIO I visit the places I am entitle TA/DA. Even on any kind of enquiry facing by a Govt. servant he is entitle for TA/DA.

When you are invoking the RTI Act as a citizen, it automatically means that like any other citizen, the facility to inspect the records is available to you at your own cost and time. In the instant case you happen to be an employee of BSNL and the PIO happens to a superior officer of your own employer. It does not mean that your PIO is deputing you to inspect the records at various places, because you are not discharging any official work of your employer in that process. Hence there is no scope for you to claim TA/DA for such inspection of documents, since they are not part of your official duties.

The matter of TA/DA for attending an enquiry proceedings is a totally different issue which is governed by your service regulations/standing orders.

[sngupta]

Mr. Colrkurup view with reagads to, RTI will be for public servant or not is under consideartion. Every public servant is first indian citizen than he is public servant. Actually who is working in services is having more interest to improve the work of department. I want to know by this forum the implementation of CIC decisions comes under which section of RTI 2005. As I know application under RTI, 1st appeal and second appeal provision comes under RTI. The implementation of decision once again comes under civil procedure code. Please say me what is actual position

[mpai]

Originally Posted by sngupta

The implementation of decision once again comes under civil procedure code. Please say me what is actual position

Going through the entire post several times, it is very difficult to understand just exactly what you want to know?

Q. If its whether the Govt. employees can ask info under RTI?
Ans Yes, they can. As they are Citizens of India who have been given an opportunity to work for Govt. of Indian under Article 309 of the Constitution.

Q. Can TA/DA be granted for inspection of documents under RTI?
Ans. No. As already described by Col. Kurup and Ganpat. TA/DA is applicable only for Govt. Services rendered under various rules like CCS etc. Please check FR/SR Part II which should be available with BSNL.

Q. When TA/DA allowed for inquiry etc. why not RTI?
Ans. Yes its true that TA/DA is applicable under CCS(CCA) Rules as well as under various other rules where the Govt. Servant has to appear in court etc. There are certain other conditions too, like the distance involved should be beyond 8 Kms etc. However this clause would not apply to the RTI Act. You have to be very carefull when you involve such rules to help you in your RTI Applications. The moment you make such mistakes, I am you are liable for penal action under various rules which apply to staff members of certain Govt. bodies, which include BSNL.

Q. Can the PIO ask you to "inspect the records at various places"?
Ans. Yes and No. Since it is you who need the information, you have to visit the office of the PA to inspect the documents held by it u/s 2(f) & (j). You have to do it at your own cost. However, if the records are with different offices of BSNL, you can ask the CPIO to obtain these records (if not volumous) u/s 5(4) to a particular office, say the nearest Head Office / Branch Office and that you will visit that particular office. You will have to give him sufficient time. Generally a week to fortnight should suffice.

And lastly, you have not informed us on the CIC decision. You have not told us of the contents and the order issued. Nor have to you intimated whether any deadlines was fixed.

Keeping member of this list in the dark would only cause you more harm.

Manoj

[sngupta]

A very easy discussion is there. In my company there is APIO, PIO and CPIO. In the personal hearing I made a mistake I could not ask the representatives to whom they are representing. Actually they were representing PIO but in decision Mr. Ansari used the word CPIO. My problem is this that to whom I may ask to inspect the records. I prepared an application addressing CPIO and submitted same to my immedaite official superior to forward the same to CPIO. The PIO himself directly interacting with me so far in spite of I am giving my all applications to APIO. My application under decision of CIC was not forwarded to CPIO and reply has been made by PIO. No where it is clear to whom is liable to provide the information and inspection the records. You Mr. MPAI advised me to submit the application under section 5(4) to particular office. From this it is not clear to whom I may submit my application. Either it to APIO,PIO,CPIO or Appeallant authority.

[ganpat1956]

Can you please quote the reference no. of the CIC decision so that we can view it directly from the CIC website and understand the same in a better manner?

[sngupta]

The decision no. is 1050/IC(A)/2007 you may view on CIC site

[mpai]

Originally Posted by sngupta

A very easy discussion is there. In my company there is APIO, PIO and CPIO. In the personal hearing I made a mistake I could not ask the representatives to whom they are representing. Actually they were representing PIO but in decision Mr. Ansari used the word CPIO. My problem is this that to whom I may ask to inspect the records. I prepared an application addressing CPIO and submitted same to my immedaite official superior to forward the same to CPIO. The PIO himself directly interacting with me so far in spite of I am giving my all applications to APIO. My application under decision of CIC was not forwarded to CPIO and reply has been made by PIO. No where it is clear to whom is liable to provide the information and inspection the records. You Mr. MPAI advised me to submit the application under section 5(4) to particular office. From this it is not clear to whom I may submit my application. Either it to APIO,PIO,CPIO or Appeallant authority.

1. CPIO and the PIO are one and same.
2. You have to approach the PIO for inspection of documents.
3. APIO is only a Post Man. He can only forward your applications / appeals to the PIO / AA. So it is the PIO who has to do all the communication.
4. You do not have to submit an application u/s 5(4). It is for the PIO to obtain the information within his office / PA and provide the same to you within the prescribed time frame.

Looks like you will need to re-read the RTI Act. 2005 properly.

Best wishes

Manoj

[sngupta]

Thanks for your guidance here it is slight difference of opinion that no one is ready to provide information. Actually pio intentionally not interested to get inspected the records. Is there any obligation on PIO to get inspected the records. Without obligation there is no way to get the inpsected the records. By giving another application I have collected so many need full informations.

[karira]

Originally Posted by sngupta

A very easy discussion is there. In my company there is APIO, PIO and CPIO. In the personal hearing I made a mistake I could not ask the representatives to whom they are representing. Actually they were representing PIO but in decision Mr. Ansari used the word CPIO. My problem is this that to whom I may ask to inspect the records. I prepared an application addressing CPIO and submitted same to my immedaite official superior to forward the same to CPIO. The PIO himself directly interacting with me so far in spite of I am giving my all applications to APIO. My application under decision of CIC was not forwarded to CPIO and reply has been made by PIO. No where it is clear to whom is liable to provide the information and inspection the records. You Mr. MPAI advised me to submit the application under section 5(4) to particular office. From this it is not clear to whom I may submit my application. Either it to APIO,PIO,CPIO or Appeallant authority.

The direct link is here:

http://cic.gov.in/CIC-Orders/Decision_19072007_15.pdf

sngupta, the decision of Prof. A A Ansari seems to be correct.
As per procedure laid down in the RTI Act, you should have first appealed to the AA and gone to the CIC if there was a need for Second Appeal.

APIO: Assistant Public Information Officer
CPIO: Central Public Information Officer
PIO: Generic Term used either for CPIO or SPIO (State....)
AA: Appelate Authority

PIO/CPIO should be the same person in the Public Authority or the Administrative unit of the PA.

Application can be given to the PIO (CPIO in the case of BSNL) or the APIO (Technically it should be ACPIO in case of BSNL)

[mpai]

Originally Posted by karira

(Technically it should be ACPIO in case of BSNL)

I really hate to correct you it should be CAPIO ;-)

I guess, it was a typographical error.

[karira]

manoj,

Thanks, yes a typo.

[ganpat1956]

Originally Posted by sngupta

I want to know by this forum the implementation of CIC decisions comes under which section of RTI 2005. As I know application under RTI, 1st appeal and second appeal provision comes under RTI. The implementation of decision once again comes under civil procedure code. Please say me what is actual position

In response to this query of Shri Satya Narain Gupta, I had sought the views of our forum member Shri Sai Srujan, an young and energetic practising advocate of the Madras High Court, on this matter. As he has felt a little delicate to participate directly in the discussions, he has sent me his opinion and I am appending the same here for the benefit of our members. All the due credit for this reply goes to Shri Sai Srujan--Ganpat

1.0 Select provisions of Civil Procedure Code[CPC] are made applicable u/s 18(3) of the RTI Act only for the following limited purposes:
-summoning and enforcing the attendance of persons and compel them to give oral or written evidence on oath and to produce the documents or things;
-requiring discovery and inspection of documents;
-receiving evidence on affidavit;
-requisitioning any public record or copies thereof from any court or office;
-issuing summons for examination of witnesses or documents;
-any other matter which may be prescribed.

2.1 In view of the above, provisions of CPC could not be invoked for executing an order of CIC. Instead CIC has been empowered u/s 20(1) to impose penalty on the non-compliant Central PIO. Penalty leviable under this section is Rs.250 each day till the information is furnished to the applicant, subject to total penalty not exceeding Rs.25,000/-.

2.2. Further, u/s 20(2), CIC is also empowered to recommend disciplinary action against Central PIO under the applicable service rules, if the PIO without reasonable cause fails to receive an application or has not furnished information within the time specified u/s 7(1) and malafidely denies information or knowingly gives incorrect/incomplete/ misleading/ destroyed/obstructs information.

3.0 The aggrieved applicant, can also apply to the jurisdictional High Court under Article 226 of the Constitution seeking a Writ of Mandamus directing the PIO concerned to implement the CIC’s order. If the PIO willfully disobeys the court order, a contempt petition for willful disobedience of the High Court order would lie against the PIO.

[sngupta]

2.1 In view of the above, provisions of CPC could not be invoked for executing an order of CIC. Instead CIC has been empowered u/s 20(1) to impose penalty on the non-compliant Central PIO. Penalty leviable under this section is Rs.250 each day till the information is furnished to the applicant, subject to total penalty not exceeding Rs.25,000/-.
As so many members of forum informed me that my decision was in favour of me. It was proved by me in personal hearing that the PIO negligently not supplying the information in time. In view of provision in act if the CIC is not penalising the PIO`s how we expect effective implementation of RTI 2005. As mentioned eralier I am not suppose to react like this as this forum is for know how of RTI not for any activist activities. The similar problem existed in Advocates and Judiciary. It is my request to all the persons to react like a activist because knowledge of law is not difficult task