Records not Traceable

[karira]

If the PIO /FAA/PA claims that records are missing, a good solution is to immediately file another RTI Application, with the same PIO , asking for the following information :

(a) Certified copy of Report of Diligent Search made for the file
papers not traceable, as stated in your letter under reference.

(b) Name & designation of the Official/s, responsible for safe
keeping of the concerned file/s.

(c) Name, Designation of Officer responsible for filing FIR and details of FIR, if any, filed with the Police for the missing. Please provide a certified copy of the FIR
file/s.

(d) If no FIR is filed, as required under the law for loss of Public Property, reasons recorded for the same. Inspection of the file wherein such reasons have been recorded.

(e) Certified copy of penal action, if any, taken against the
official/s, as in b) above.

(f) Any other information and inspection of all files relevant to the missing record /file.

[colnrkurup]

Let us hypothetically suppose that the PIO has furnished following reply to the above :
(a)Certified copy is enclosed as desired.
(b)Mr.X
(c)Mr.Y is responsible to file the FIR. Since no FIR is seen filed, not possible to provide its copy
(d)No reason seen recorded
(e)No penal action is seen taken and hence it is not possible to provide its copy
(f) No other information regarding the alleged missing file is held in records

As for as RTI Act is concerned the matter end. Maximum we can do is file one more RTI application under Section 4(1)(d) seeking reasons for certain action/inaction. The reply is likely admissission of the lapse stating that "No reason is seen recorded or any informartion for the reason is held"
What is next ?
The above is not hypothetical. It is happening in this part of our country. A District Collctor or even a Principal Secretary to govrnment does not bother even if you establish deriliction of duties of public servant and loss by neglect the public property entrusted in one's custody.

In case you start filing complaints, even to the Chief Minister, it will ultimately reach the delinquent public servant who will repeat more or less the same reply or, reply to the effect that "the matter has been enquired into and found that no dereliction of duties or loss by neglect has happened'. The same reply will be quotted in all further correspondence - Even if you rise the issue to the President of India's level .

[nk agarwal]

It is avery difficult situation.
In one case the CPIO of UPSC replied me "Copies of the minutes of DPC meetings for promotion to the post of Director (Geology) for the period from 1997-1998 to 2007-2008 are 57 pages in number. You are therefore requested to deposit a sum of Rs 114/ at the rate of Rs 2/- per page to this office to obtain copies of the minutes of above mentioned meetings. Despite best efforts files numbrer of DPC meetings files for the period from 1990 to March 1997 could not be located in this office[/color]".
I sent the required fee for copies, CPIO sent me a covering letter after 30 days of receiving the fee by speed post stating that "I am forwarding herewith a copy of minutes of each DPC meetings held for promotion to the post of Directorr (Geology) during the period from 1997-98 to 2007-08" but without the enclosure. I phoned him yesterday (29.20.2008 requesting him to send the cpies which he failed to enclose.- I prefereed this course of action (rather than filing the Ist appeal) to cut down time in getting the required info.

In another case PIO of my own department replied taht "records not available"and took no action inspite oh he being the custodian of the records as Director and head of Office.
In another case on my request for copies of proposals for DPC in which UPSC is involved, the CPIO replies that "documents asked for by you have been emanated from by the Ministry of Mines as such the copies of the same may please be obtained from that Ministry.

These are some examples to show the plight ofinfo seekers and callous approach of the Public Authorities.
My point is, in the context of on going discussions - that once the CPIO or the custodian of records comes to know of the loss of records/documents the action of fixing the responsibilities should commence automatically. If this is not done all "unpleasant documents can be destroyed and the info seeker could be told "records not available". This is avery serious matter, I wish CIC and SICs should take stern actions on such pleas by CPIOs
As far as weeding is concerned, records weeded out should be replied as such- records not available can not come under this category by any stretch of imagination.

[karira]

If such a stand is taken by the PIO /AA/PA, then the only option is to go upto CIC/SIC and hope for the best.

What else can one do ?

[vikrambakshi67]

Sir,

1 I had sought information on action taken on my official applications and complaint letter on corrupt issues happening.

These applications were addressed for processing through proper chain of command from lower HQ Public Auth to higher HQ Public Auth for seeking a transfer and interview from higher HQ to inform him of corrupt complaints. The lower HQ had returned my applications forcibly and were not processing my applications, when i had submitted fourth application direct to superior HQ. Now when i sought RTI act on what action they did on my first three applications as follows

The complaint letters were also addressed to the Public Auth

(a) Please provide me copies of all related documents held with lower HQ indicating administrative practices which were followed in processing my applications by the concerned official.

(b) I also sought daily weekly progress, copies of all documents of decision making noting sheet and reasons for non informative and non recordable actions and decisions.

2 I got reply from PIO AS follows:

Applications were returned back by hand as accepted by the complainants, .

whether or not those observations were rectified and the applications resubmitted is not known since e no records are available, Any record of processing the balance four applications are also not available as those officials have been posted out in a different outfit.

There are also no details of weekly etcas no record exist. The query can only be commented by ex offical who had dealt with the case

In absence of any correspondence what action was taken on corrupt complaints cannot be commented upon.
l
All letters were written as addressed to individual appointments for which no correspondence is availbele, hence no deemed action information can be provided

The process and methodology followed by the Ex official is not known

My complaint letter was also forwarded by senior official to lower Official. That record is also not available.

3 Now my queries to all members of the forum:
Is the PIO suppose to seek information from Ex official and provide to me

Is the PIO suppose to forward my RTI application to PIO of next out fit where the Ex Official is now posted?

Is the PIO suppose to check old record as I has submitted copies of receipt entries of receiving applications registers

The proof is that I had forwarded copies of these letters to all other HQs also.

I am only seeking decision making process and not where about of my complaint and letter which PIO is expressing helplessness as there are no records because the Ex officials were smart enough not to leave any trace or the PIO is helping them out.

They did not replied to me because they were guilt and knew they would not be able to answer on corrupt complaint brought out. Is it not the PIO to establish there non acts of dealing with corrupt issues and reply to me rather saying no records available.

What options do I have

[whackpack]

to the best of my understanding, it is the responsibility of the PIO to seek information from the ex-official and provide it to you.

the PIO need not forward your RTI application to the PIO of the new outfit where the ex official is now posted, as the new PA of the ex official is in no way involved with your RTI application, and would not hold any of the records, but should rather forward it directly to the ex official, whether he has moved on to another outfit or retired

PIO is definitely supposed to check the old records, as he is the PIO of the PA, whether the records are old or current.

please wait for other comments from the informed members of this group

[vinaykala]

dear sir,

since we anticipate that we shall get a stock reply that records are not avialable should we not

ab initio in the rti app itself while seeking infor on various matters also seek that if records are not available under any head then they must give the following infor like

with whom last kept , when last seen, when last entered , when received etc that is all queries suggested to us may be put alongwith the rti app rather than file another seeking how, why, when etc records were lost.

vinay kala
apr24,09

[ganpat1956]

Originally Posted by vinaykala

dear sir,

should we not

ab initio in the rti app itself while seeking infor on various matters also seek that if records are not available under any head then they must give the following infor like

with whom last kept , when last seen, when last entered , when received etc that is all queries suggested to us may be put alongwith the rti app rather than file another seeking how, why, when etc records were lost.

vinay kala
apr24,09

This is a good idea to avoid some loss of time and to pre empt certain standard replies.

Please also go through the earlier discussions here, as I have merged your post with this existing thread.