Information: Locus Standi

[abhi987]

Hi,

I have filed an RTI query with the deputy registrar co-op sty mumbai to seek information from the society in which I stay.

My mother is a shareholder and member of the society and she stays abroad, can the registrar and society deny information on the basis that I have no locus standi and that my mother should be filing the RTI query? I do have power of attorney from my mother.

Regards,

Abhi.

[murgie]

Am NOT a lawyer. But if you have a "general" power of attorney from your mother, I can't see how a PIO can prevent you from acting on her behalf. If the PIO does do so, insist on a reason in writing ... it could become a basis for pressing a complaint later. Best, -Murgie

[abhi987]

Hi Murgie,

The point is does one need to have a locus standi to file an application under the RTI.

Can you seek from my society the same information I have sought although you have no locus standi as far as the society in which I stay is concerned.

Abhi.

[murgie]

There will be wiser heads than mine for this. Common sense suggests that depending on the nature of the information sought, locus standi may be judged differently. If you want information about a promotion or transfer case in a public authority, if it is your own, clearly one would think you have good reason for asking; if it for an unrelated party, less so, and maybe s8 exemptions apply. I think all you need to worry about in resolving locus standi is to ask if any of the s8 objections will apply. I don't think in your case they do. Best, -Murgie

[colnrkurup]

Why complicate the issue by bringing in irrlevnt issues? As a cityzen of India, yourself can ask the informtion you need

[murgie]

Colonel Saab, I guess there's some cloud because we don't know exactly what information Abhi's mother is planning to seek from the housing society.

Suppose it has to do with financial accounts; say, whether all members are making their agreed-upon monthly contributions into a fund (say, for external whitewashing). I think clearly any society member is entitled to ask that, and on behalf of his mother, Abhi should also be allowed to ask.

I can't easily think of some vivid example of housing society information in which Abhi might potentially be more interested than his mother, but I think that kind of possible interpretation may be behind the query. Otherwise, I agree there appears to be no issue here. Best,

Murgie

[karira]

Let any citizen of India ask for any information from any Public Authority.
It is the duty of the PIO to reject it under Sec 8 or 9 of the RTI Act.
Why should the applicant worry about anything ?

SK, it will help if you mention what exactly you asked for and what exactly was the PIO's reply ?

[abhi987]

I have asked for the following information:

a. A Copy of approved bye-laws applicable to the above mentioned society;

b. A photocopy of Resolutions and Minutes of the society meetings of Managing Committee and General Body related to vehicles parking inside the society premises;

c. A photocopy of the letter of allotments / agreements of all the vehicles being parked inside the society premises.

The idea behind understanding the locus standi part is losing 30 days and now maybe 20 days as I have already filed the query by registered AD on 30-06-08.

The PIO will forward my query to the society and they will defy the query citing locus standi reason, as they have been doing whenever I write to them by not receiving my correspodence.

Further as per the recent Mumbai High Court judgment open car parking spaces cannot be sold or alloted by builder, because they are common amenities and builder has already charged every member for developing the common amenities and he cannot allot or sell exclusively to any member as it would not only amount to double charging but also common amenities cannot be sold.

Further in our country if a purchase/ sell transaction takes place one needs to pay to some kind of tax or the other to the govt of India, for example if one buys/sells a movable thing one needs to pay sales tax, for professional services - professional tax, for rendering services - service tax likewise for immovable property - stamp duty, and not only stamp duty but for immovable property one needs to pay Municipal taxes every year.

The members who claim to have purchased open car parking spaces have neither paid the stamp duty nor are paying annual taxes to the Corporation, which will be evident from their documents.

The Managing Committee as well as the members who have purchased from the builder are aware of this judgment and so they would not like to share their documents.

In fact a few members including the Secretary have parked their vehicles even without any allotment letters from the builder and as such they do not have any documents and are parking their cars inside the society premises. The Completion plan submitted by the Architect to the Corporation shows 13 car parkings whereas 18 cars are being parked inside the society premises.

[karira]

SK,

Based on your queries a), b) and c), anyone can ask for that information.
There is no question of locus standi nor or power of attorney.

[murgie]

Even if only the registrar and not the society itself is the PA, at a minimum, with a PoA on behalf of your mother, who is a society member, you must have a right to ask these rather basic questions. (My very limited experience in using a PoA is on behalf of my father who is a stroke victim, for some minor financial transactions in India. I've been faced with cautious people wanting to know if the PoA was genuine, and have been asked to get it notarized, attested, etc, and to submit a copy of the PoA with other paperwork, but nothing beyond that.)

Be sure to document your communication carefully. At a minimum you should be able to show malafide intent, which can become the basis of a complaint u/s18. Best,

Murgie

[ganpat1956]

The RTI Act neither insists on a reason for an application nor a locus standi for the applicant, though several PIOs have taken recourse to this route to buy time or to reject an application. The decision of CIC in cic.gov.in/CIC-Orders/Decision_28082007_32.pdf - will amplify this position.

[murgie]

I like the spirit of the posts in #9 and #11 above. And in this particular housing society instance where s7(9) -- "providing information is burdensome, so sorry" -- is inapplicable, I think what you say is well-taken.

But in general when making an arbitrary request -- say if I were to suddenly ask govt-owned Khadi Bhandar for its records just because it tickles my fancy -- it would be hard to escape giving a reason for the data. While the Act does not require that an appellant state a reason for the request, it does not prohibit an appellant from providing it either. It may ease the anxiety of a PIO concerned about frivolous requests.

In the long-run till the CIC becomes more serious about implementing s4, and penalizing PAs for not taking the initiative to disclose what is likely to be useful to others, this problem will persist.

In this instance, of course, the reasonableness of the request is beyond question. So the above comment is less relevant.

[abhi987]

I have received reply from PIO (Deputy Registrar of Co-op Societies). The reply goes as follows:

It is correct to approach our office for information you have requested, but the info you require is with the society's office, therefore you can get this information directly from the society's office too, and the society will also be informed about the same.
PIO's Signature ....../-

cc: Chairman / Secretary

It is hereby informed to the Chairman / Secretary that immediately provide the member with the information, and subequently submit a report to our department that you have provided the information.
PIO's Signature ...../-

How do I take it forward??

Should I write to the society to provide me with the required information?

Or wait for the society to respond and if so how many days?

If the society fails to provide the information which I am sure is going to be the case then who do I approach? PIO or go into first appeal ?

I would greatly appreciate the opinion of our forum's members.

[murgie]

1. Why waste time if you really want the information? Write to the society with a copy of the letter you got from the PIO. That response of the PIO seems very reasonable to me. Not only has he asked you to approach the Society but he has also directed the Society to provide you the information, and inform him of that. The PIO also has to get the information from the Society, and his approach can potentially save you a little time.

2. If the Society does not respond, in this case I think letting the PIO know that the Society has not responded, would be the first step.

[abhi987]

Previously I had already approached the society for the information but society wrote back saying it is burdensome to provide. They have a vested interest in not giving the information if you refer to the earlier discussion in this thread.

It is logical to approach the society with the query / RTI query, but the query would be stonewalled unless proper procedure for RTI is followed. Under the RTI one cannot directly file a RTI query to the society but one can do so by approaching the Deputy Registrar of Co-operative Societies under the provisions of section 11(2).

Now with the help of RTI a time bound clock has started clicking for the society to provide the information.

Now if I go back to the PIO, he has already issued a directive within 30 days and so the time clock has stopped clicking on him.

[murgie]

There's a misunderstanding here. I'm not asking you to file a new RTI query with the Society. I recognize you've already filed an RTI query with the PIO of the Dy Registrar, and he has given at least one possible intelligent response.

Now write to the Society asking them to IMPLEMENT THE PIO's ORDER that you've just got. This is part of the SAME RTI query process. If they refuse or dilly-dally you'll be on firmer ground when you get back to the PIO, and in that case he will have to procure the information himself, and if he can't then figure out some way to use the power of his office to levy a penalty on the Society's office-bearers.

But for now I think it is best to try the Society one more time, INCLUDING THE PIO's ORDER as an enclosure.

[murgie]

You should seek clarification from the PIO who responded regarding the time limit within which the Society must respond, and how he himself will comply with the time limit under the Act if you approach the Society directly.