Need Help: How to calculate 30 days

[rajub]

If the applicant sends application by email (to email address given at PA's web site) and sends fees by regd post in the form of ipo from which date 30 days will be calculated ? From the date email is sent or from the date ipo is receivedny PIO ?

Is there any decision in this regard ?

[sidmis]

Dear Raju,

Plz refer to the following post.

30 days starts from which date?

[rajub]

Dear Sidmis thank you very much for reference to extremely useful thread.

I have gone through the thread.

http://www.rtiindia.org/forum/867-30...arts-date.html

However the thread has become too divergent so I am posting here on the subject matter "calculation of 30 days"

Mine is a very peculiar case.

I submitted an application via email to PIO wherein I had requested the PIO to inform me about the amount of payment to be made to get the necessary information. I also said that I would immediately visit PIO and pay the required money as soon as I receive the intimation from PIO.

In response to my application I received a regd. letter after 35 days rejecting my request under sec 8 (1) (d) and (e). However no money was demanded.

After 10 days I sent a FA to FAA.

After reading the abovementioned thread I guess my appeal may be rejected for not paying requisite fees.

At first I thought I should send an IPO of Rs. 10 to PIO.

But on deeper thinking I thought that would not help as period of 30 days is already over.

The comments are welcome !

[sidmis]

This is strange. The said PIO has processed the RTI application without even receiving the Fees. Technically this RTI application is incomplete. So the PIO has definitely erred. Perhaps the PIO did not ask for the Fees since he has to reject your application, which he eventually did.

If the FAA ignores this and gives a decision in your favour then feel lucky. Otherwise start it all over again. It's better not to pursue this case at the Commission level.

[colnrkurup]

In nut shell, the period of 30 days start on the day the PIO receive the RTI application with Rs.10- - I repeat - "with Rs.10/-". In the absence of the fee, the application is not required to be considered at all.

"No Fees" "No RTI Application". As per my understanding, an RTI application to be reckoned as competently filed, it has to be accompanied by the prescribed fees and the 30/35 day's period commence on the date of receipt of the competently filed application at the office of the PIO.

[rajub]

Now there is a very very peculiar situation developed.

Few very interesting law points need to be discussed.

1) If the PIO aceepts and decides on an application without Fee means he does not rule application "incomplete".

2) Can PIO plead in first or second appeal for rejection on ground for non payment of fees. If He does so he is arguing against his own decision. It is really very very strange. I have not studied law so I can not make more critical comment but my common sense tells me that here after rejecting the application on this ground would be "bad in law".

3) If it is accepted that the application is incomplete then what is the status of the order passed by PIO ? It is a quasi judicial order and cannot be simply revoked or cancelled. Only the competent higher judicial authority can set aside the order.

4) Can the higher judicial authority suo moto set aside the order on this ground? If it does so then the higher authority is setting aside the rejection of information. Then is it not a natural outcome that PIO must supply information ?

5) Can higher authority direct the applicant to start the process afresh ? If it does so is higher authority not penalising the applicant for the fault of PIO ?

6) Can the higher authority direct the payment of fees and then will proceed with the appeal after the fees have been received ? If FA or CIC does this then time lapse of 30 days and/or 7-8 months (am I right ? is this the time lag at CIC ?) will penalise the applicant for the fault of PIO. Is it justifible in a legal process.

7) In the normal legal process if the order of a lower judicial authority is erroneous it is just set aside. Thats all ! Nothing more. So in this case is it the right process ?

8) What if I offer to pay or actually pay the fees before I receive any communication from FAA ? What if I do it after FA is over (presuming FAA does not reject my appeal on this ground)

9) Will (Can) CIC reject my SA on suo moto taking note of this situation ?

[colnrkurup]

The RTI Act is such a simple and people friendly piece of legislation that it does not need any legal knowledge to grasp All it need is clean open mind with very clear concept of natural justice and fair-play. There is nothing peculiar or strange in your case. It amount to simple fact that out of ignorance you did not pay the prescribed fee and the PIO equally ignorant did not observe it. If the PIO has given you the required information to your satisfaction, forget about any further action.

If you are not satisfied with the reply, before taking any further step, correct your mistake by paying Rs.10/-and obtain its dated receipt. In case the PIO is not accepting the money please use your injenuity. Still if you are struck, come to us.

Forget about other legal jurisprudence. There is no provision of law which forbid a public servant in replying to your letter. The PIO is bound to rise the issue of non-payment of prescribed fee at any stage of the appeal at his convenience. If I am the PIO I will rise the issue only when cornered by the SIC/CIC as a very valid and accetable excuse for not providing the information.

So, my advice is not to bother with other legal aspect and pay the fee forthwith. After it is accepted, you may proceed with the first appeal, second appeal etc.

[sidmis]

You have already said your RTI application was rejected by invoking the exemption clauses and not for lack of fees.

As I understand you must have filed your First Appeal harping on this denial of information and seeking to lift the exemption applied u/s 8 (1) (d) and (e). Since the PIO processed your application in spite of your not paying the requisite fees you have no ground at all to raise the non payment of fees issue at this stage.

So the PIO may not go into the fees issue at all and the FAA wll not raise it either. They will simply stick to denial aspect.

Notwithstanding the points raised by you the FAA may simply reject your appeal and leave it like that.

In case you move upto the Commission level your second appeal is liable to be rejected even at the scrutiny stage itself. It may not even go to the hearing stage as far as I forsee.

[rajub]

very valid points raised by both colnrkurup and sidmis.

I was thinking on the same lines. But was undecided on timing of making the payment.

Now I will send ipo for Rs. 10 by regd. post pio on monday only.

Sidmis gave very very useful information that second appeal will be rejected at the scrutiny level itself.

This type of simple but very important advice make me feel proud to be associated with this forum.

By the way, colnrkurup how can one make APIO or PIO accept fee or application by hand delivery ?

I am unable to submit the applications by hand delivery so have been submitting them by regd. post ?

[sidmis]

Sidmis gave very very useful information that second appeal will be rejected at the scrutiny level itself

This is as per The Central Information Commission (Management) Regulations, 2007. Plz see Para 9.

9. Documents to accompany appeal or complaint:-
Every appeal or complaint made to the Commission shall be accompanied
by self attested copies/photo copies of the following documents, namely:-
(i) The RTI application submitted before the CPIO along with
documentary proof as regards payment of fee under the RTI Act;

State Commissions may take up the case. I am not vert sure.

Frankly though this is an issue not worth fighting as things stand right now. It may change once fees are paid to the PIO.

[karira]

Just restricting my post to "30 days start from which date".

CIC Mr. Habibullah seems to think otherwise !

Please see this (copied post from the thread referred to above):
===========
Even I had the similar opinion as you.

But I just read the decision of CIC quoted by you in your subsequent post.
The full decision can be viewed at:

http://cic.gov.in/CIC-Orders/Decision_08122006_9.pdf

The argument given by CIC Mr Habibullah is:

Appellate Authority Shri Thakur’s claim that the time limit begins to apply only
from the date of receipt of the fees is without basis in law. Under Sec. 7(1), on
receipt of a request u/s 6, the CPIO shall as expeditiously as possible and in any
case within 30 days of the receipt of the request provide the information on
payment of such fee as may be prescribed. It is, therefore, clear that whereas
the information may be provided only once the fee is received, it is not
open to the CPIO to begin process of the application for information from
the date the fee is received.

Basically, he feels that the PIO should have the information "ready" within 30 days, and give it to the applicant when the fees are received.

[colnrkurup]

Section 7(1) does not suppress or supercede Section 6(1), Section 7(1) is direction to the PIO whereas the directions to the applicant is in Section 6(1). The words ' of receipt of the request under Section 6' is critical. The PIO can receive the request only under Section 6 - means a competently filed request - means request accompanying the prescribed fees. That is my interpretation

[rajub]

Sec 6(1) states ,"A person, who desires to obtain any information under this Act, shall make a request in writing or through electronic means ......".


Now electronic means does include through sms and fees cannot be sent by sms. Fees can be paid in cash personally visiting PIO or sending ipo or draft by post.

In this scenario there bound to be a time lag between filing of application and paying of fees.


There must be consideration of Act as a whole. Hence Mr. Habibullah interpreted the Act in the spirit of Act.


If part of sec 6(1) is considered in isolation and held that fees must accompony the application then appilcation cannot be sent by electronic means. Thus section 6(1) itself is violeted.

[sidmis]

Now electronic means does include through sms and fees cannot be sent by sms. Fees can be paid in cash personally visiting PIO or sending ipo or draft by post.

Both Fees can be deposited electronically and application can be dispatched electronically too. It is technically possible.
No need to resort to the hybrid mode.

For transfer of Fees we have Electronic Transfers(Netbanking), Mobile Banking and Phone banking etc. Even call centers are deducting the fees from your call charges. Application can be transferred through FAX/Email.

So there may not be any time lag as envisaged by you.
But these are the possibilities which can be explored further. But their adoption is not at all wide spread.

By the way would you please tell us which Public Authority you have in mind?

[rajub]

Thank you very much sidmis !

I have a nationalised bank in mind.

I would certainly like to send fees electronically. But I do not have a bank account with netbanking/mobile banking/phone banking facility.

I don't know anything about call centres. Would you please elaborate ?

I sent the application by email (I wrongly mentioned sms there but I think through sms also it is possible).

The branch of the bank is at walking distance from my house so I preferred depositing fee there in cash or by postal order.

I can send application by email and deposit the fee in the branch on the same day.

[ganpat1956]

Rajub,
You have raised too many hypothetical questions in the entire thread that gives an impression that you are not very serious about getting the info, but want to resolve all your inner doubts first. I suggest you to spend more time going through the various threads under RTI News/RTI General Discussions/Ask for RTI Query. All your doubts have already been covered in the various discussions that have taken place here.

[rajub]

ganpat1956 said

Rajub,
You have raised too many hypothetical questions in the entire thread that gives an impression that you are not very serious about getting the info, but want to resolve all your inner doubts first. I suggest you to spend more time going through the various threads under RTI News/RTI General Discussions/Ask for RTI Query. All your doubts have already been covered in the various discussions that have taken place here.

Fair enough !

I will do that.

[sidmis]

> I have a nationalised bank in mind.

Hello Rajub

Just let me know PIO of which Nationalised Bank received your RTI application through email.

I will update my database on email receiving PIOs. They are a very rare commodity.

Sidharth

[rajub]

sidmis said

Hello Rajub

Just let me know PIO of which Nationalised Bank received your RTI application through email.

I will update my database on email receiving PIOs. They are a very rare commodity.

Sidharth

It is bank of india

By the way Sidharth will you please give information about call centres ?

By sending application by email and depositing fee with APIO near my home I have successfully kept the time period to 30 days. Had I sent the application by post it would have added for postal delay plus cost of regd. AD postage.

Rajub