Presence of another person while inspecting document

[avinash]

I had asked about a lawyer being present when I am being shown documents by a bank. Actually what I had in mind was an income tax consultant or a chartered accountant being present because they can advise me regarding framing further queries. I have now been told that since I have asked the question, they will show the document only to me and not to an outsider - not even anyone from the bank itself. They want to know under what section of the RTI Act, I am asking for an outsider to be present.

Avinash Kapadia

[kushal]

The decision seems to be logical from the Income tax Department. However, as a work around, the Chartered Accoutant could have asked information about your details, and being 3rd party naturally the department would ask you if that a 1st party wants access to your record. In that way you could have insisted to be present along with the 1st party.

In your case the 1st party could be your CA.

[karira]

Avinash,

I agree with Kushal.
Whenever I have a doubt while making a application under RTI, I put myself in the shoes of the PIO and try to visualise, as a devil's advocate, as to what type of problems can he create for my application. Sometimes, I have to have a very tortured way of thinking and a warped sense of logic while doing this....but the solution always stares clearly.
If you do this before submitting your RTI application, I can assure you that you will never have any problem in getting whatever information you need.

[nile0611]

I had similar problem, for which I had found a solution which worked in my case.
In my application I wrote,
"I would inspect the document/site along with my collegue/lawyers/friend etc.. you are requested to provide me appointment for the same".

[mpai]

Originally Posted by avinash

I had asked about a lawyer being present when I am being shown documents by a bank. I have now been told that since I have asked the question, they will show the document only to me and not to an outsider - not even anyone from the bank itself. They want to know under what section of the RTI Act, I am asking for an outsider to be present.

Avinash Kapadia

They, the PA are absolutely wrong to say that an outsider cannot be allowed to inspect the documents you desire to inspect. You can counter question them to know under which section an Outsider cannot be allowed. You should play back the same hand they play.

Note, all documents, once supplied, even if under inspection, are public documents and come under public domain. To remind you, its absolutely clear that under Section 6 (2) An applicant making request for information shall not be required to give any reason for requesting the information or any other personal details except those that may be necessary for contacting him.

So under this clause, you can do just any thing. You can even take members of the press with you while you inspect the documents. Alternatively you can take some RTI Activists. You can also cite the case where an undertrial in Sabarmati Jail, Ahmedabad was allowed to inspect documents in Punjab National Bank, Ahmedabad along with several RTI Activists, his family members and correspondents from Times of India.

Manoj

[karira]

mpai,

Tks for the reference about Ahmedabad.
Do you have some reference of the incident.
It will probabaly be of help to some members in the future.

[mpai]

Originally Posted by karira

mpai,

Tks for the reference about Ahmedabad.
Do you have some reference of the incident.
It will probabaly be of help to some members in the future.

Check this article on the CIC Site

Undertrial exercises his right under RTI Act

You can check out the PDF file containing the image of the article which appeared in the Times of India. A few other things which I did not add earlier, was that the applicant also accompanied by police escorts.

http://www.cic.gov.in/Best%20Practic...2007_4_5_3.pdf

Further, what would one do, if the applicant is illiterate or not able to read the language in which the documents are typed. For example, if you visit an office in Tamil Nadu and cannot read Tamil? You need somebody with you to help you read it.

Manoj

[ganpat1956]

Karira, have you forgotten this thread so soon ?
Undertrial exercises his right to info

[karira]

Sorry, Ganpat !

[karira]

Please also see the following thread:

representation

[snkmoorthy]

Mr.Avinash, though contrary opinions have been expressed. i still think that it would not be proper to have another person with you while you are inspecting documents for information. you are the applicant and you alone are entitled to inspect the documents. if you do not know the language or if you are not able to understand. the PIO may assist you. however, PIOs in most of the offices are not full time information officers they are doing this as an additional responsibility along with their regular work. you may however bring another person if that is okayed by PIO. the act is not very clear on this point.

[abhijeet]

During inspection of records and also in course of 1st appeal hearing I always assisted the applicant. Only once I was not allowed to say anything in support of the applicant during hearing; otherwise I did not face any difficulty. I had represented
4 hearings on behalf of RTI applicants with a letter of authorisation.

[Satish Gupta]

I do not understand the logic behind the assertion by PA that you cannot take anyone with you. You have the right to inspect and make copies of the documents. Then you are free to show the documents to anyone you like.

CIC has ruled that the requester of records can take video tape, or copies of the document by any method available to him. So you can take a digital camera with you and take photos of the documents. Then you can show the photos, which will be legible, to anyone you like.

You may want to take a copy of the CIC ruling with you, and take a digital camera with you.

[wagh7]

Gupta ji,

You are 100% correct. So PIO's should allow the applicants and his advsors/advocates without any objections.

rakatkam.

murthy sir,

I think PIO's should allow the advisors and advocates accompaning for file inspections, as we many times cannot interpret the decisions, rullings etc., hence as an advisor who totally help the applicant in all aspects as the applicants totally can believe his advisor rather than the person appointed by PIO for assistant.

Hope you will understand and agree with me.

rakatkam.

[snkmoorthy]

rakatkamji, personally as a PIO, i would not object to the presence of 'advisers' just one or two persons with the applicant; the presence of a lawyer may be intimidating; leaving aside personal opinions, does the RTI act provide for advisers and accompanying persons while collecting information, either expressly or by implication? i appeal to our members to enlighten me.

[taurus]

In the absence of any specific provision in the Act for allowing any third person for inspection of files, every case has to be decided on its merits. While doing so the main aim of the Act viz. ensuring transparency and accountability should be kept in mind. I dont think there can be an universal rule for this.

[karira]

If a applicant is really interested in taking "someone" with him for inspection, he can mention it in the application itself:

I, alongwith with my associate would like to inspect the documents...........

OR

Please give me a suitable time and date for inspecting the documents.....alongwith my associate.

[mpai]

Originally Posted by taurus

In the absence of any specific provision in the Act for allowing any third person for inspection of files, every case has to be decided on its merits. While doing so the main aim of the Act viz. ensuring transparency and accountability should be kept in mind. I dont think there can be an universal rule for this.

Since you remind us on the "absence of any specific provision in the act"..... can you point out any specific provision in the act, about "any third person". Note, I am not talking about "third party", but about "third person" which you have mentioned in your own post.

My dear friend, this act has been brought out for the citizens of under. Check Section 3. So anybody who comes along with the citizen, also happens to be a citizen of the country. We have already discussed this point, earlier in this thread.

Of course, the PIO can raise the point in debarring advocates from attending the inspection. The PIO can also ask for identify cards from those who seek to inspect the documents. The PIO will have to allow only citizens, but can stop the others.

Best wishes

Manoj

[colnrkurup]

I just could not visualise any problem. If the PIO turns difficult, the "other person" including "Advocate" also can file an application for inspection of the same files. How will the PIO prevent this ? The maximum he can do is to allow inspection one by o