Topic Identifier

Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Help in filing Second Appeal / Complaint

  1. #1

    Question Help in filing Second Appeal / Complaint


    I joined this Forum only yesterday. I congragulate the Administrator and other senior members for this useful, informative, up-to-date and well-maintained website.

    I am planning to file a Second Appeal/Comaplaint before CIC. I request help from members with more experience in fine tuning my Appeal so that no formalities are left out and no important thing is missed. My case is as under:
    (1) I filed my first Application under RTI Act on 23-2-2007. I received two letters (replies) from CPIO on 4-4-2007 and 26-5-2007 (with two reminders from me in between). However, the information given was incomplete, false, misleading and, of course, late. However, due to ignorance, I failed to address my reminders to AA and make it a formal First Appeal.
    (2) I filed an application u/s 18(1) before CIC on 5-7-2007, which was heard on 6-12-2007 and an Decision passed on next day. I think my application was treated as my First Appeal. In the Decision, CIC directed the CPIO to provide me a copy of a survey report (conducted by Public Authority based on my request/complaint) within 15 working days from the date of the Decision. Also, I was advised to seek Inspection of Documents from CPIO to identify any other required by me.
    (3) Due to postal delay I got my copy of the Decision only on 28-12-2007 and by that time the CPIO did not provide me the survey report. So, on the same day (28-12-2007) I wrote to CPIO to expedite the supply of survey report to me (he was already past the time limit set by CIC Decision). I also gave him a list of documents to be made available for inspection my me, so I can identify the exact documents required by me.
    (4) Continuing their delaying tactics, the CPIO wrote to me a registered letter dated 28-12-2007 (but Post Office date tell it was posted on 10-1-2008), asking to to intimate them what documents are required for inspection. I did not respond to it as I had personally given them the list on 28-12-2007 and got their receipt.
    (5) On 18/19-1-2008 (by email/hard copy) I wrote to AA and clearly wrote "Subject: First Appeal under RTI Act, 2005), that I have not got the survey report yet. I also repeated the list of documents required for inspection. At this time CPIO was clearly in violation of time limit set for supply of survey report, but it is yet not one month since I gave them the list of documents for inspection. Anyway, neither CPIO nor AA disputed this time limit.
    (6) I got letter from Public Authority (perhaps one of the APIO), dated 30-1-2008, asking me to meet a nodal officer in his office on 1-2-2008 regarding inspection of document. Due to short notice, I met the nodal officer on 4-2-2008, after taking appointment on phone.
    (7) During inspection (a) I was shown irrelevant information that does not serve my purpose (b) I was shown some information on computer screen (c) I was told that some of the information was not available/not traceable. Still, some of the information on file and the one on computer screen was useful for me, but a printout/photocopy was denied to me. The excuse given was that the nodal officer was not authorised to give photocopy as he can not accept payment under RTI Act and I must go back to CPIO/AA for printout/photocopy. In all these were less than 10 pages and I was willing to pay charges as per rules. I also wonder that if I was not required to pay any fee for photocpy u/s 7(6). I conveyed the outcome of inspection of documents to AA/CPIO/APIO/nodal officer by email/hard copy on same day/next day.
    (8) Meanwhile, letter dated 2-2-2008 from APIO enclosed a copy of internal official note, which was passed on as the survey report. However, it was not the actual survey report itself. During inspection I was able to see the actual survey report, which was a handwritten report, and its content serve my purpose. This is a case of deliberate manipulation of information.
    (9) I got the final letter from APIO on 25-2-2005. This letter enclose a copy of a letter addressed to myself and already received by me. It was claimed that it was a part of information requested by me but actually it is an entirely irrelevant document. This letter also claim that giving me printout of information shown to me on computer screen is not possible because it is an online system. There is no mention about rest of the objections raised by me.
    ************************************************
    I was help on following points:
    (1) Whether I am violating any of the time limits for filing the Second Appeal?
    (2) What is difference between Second Appeal u/s 20(1) and Complaint?
    (3) What to write in Col 5 & 6, i.e. "Prayer or Relief Sought" and "Grounds for Prayer or Relief". I am considering 7(2), 7(6), 18(1)(b,c,e), 19(8)(1)(iii-v), 20(1) and 20(2). I want all the information and panelty on the CPIO/AA. How to draft para 5 & 6?

    I have noted that I will have to prepare the Appeal in double space and in a book form. I will make five copies, one each will go to CPIO and AA, and two copies to CIC (with proof of serving the appeal to CPIO/AA). My appeal will become about 5-7 pages in double space and I hope it is not too many pages.

    Thanks for help,

    Naresh Kumar Saini



  2. #2
    Posts
    44,512
    Name:
    C J Karira
    Blog Entries
    9
    Rep Power
    553

    Re: Help in filing Second Appeal / Complaint


    Naresh,

    You have already made a complaint to CIC under Sec 18. Based on this, CIC gave an order and further developments took place as highlighted by you in Serial Nr. 3 onwards.

    1. In your initial complaint to the CIC, did you "pray" for:
    - Information to be given to you free of charge since the mandatory
    time limit of 30 days was over
    - Penalty on the PIO at the rate of Rs 250 per day for the delay in reply to you (10 days and 60 days for the two replies sent by PIO) ?

    From the CIC decision, it looks as if you did not specifically "pray" for these two. Normally in such cases (if you see some other CIC decisions), CIC specifically mentions in its orders:
    - Information to be given free of charge
    - Penalty
    - Appellant can come back to the CIC after the final information is given, in case he is still not satisfied with the reply of PIO.

    2. The time limit that you are asking about is only applicable if you go in for Second Appeal under Sec 19(3).
    This depends on whether the AA's orders were communicated to you or not ? Did he pass any speaking orders ? Was any reference made to the AA's orders in the subsequent communications of the PIO/APIO....?
    If the answer is NO, then as a applicant you can safely assume that the AA did not deal with your case.
    In such a case you can directly go for complaint under Section 18 (in spite of using this route once already). There is no time limit under Sec 18.

    On the other hand , if the AA has heard your case (and you were informed about the AA's decision directly or via the PIO), then go for Second Appeal under Sec 19(3)...which allows 90 days from the date information actually received (which is 25 Feb 2008 in your case).

    Therefore, do not worry about time limit irrespective of whether you are invoking Sec 18 or Sec 19...since in both the situations you are within limits.

    3. Whether to use Sec 18 or Sec 19 ?
    Generally, the CIC prefers that the applicant complete the procedure for First Appeal before approaching CIC (under Sec 18 or 19). Please see the following threads:
    <o></o>
    https://www.rtiindia.org/forum/2362-l...er-18-1-c.html
    https://www.rtiindia.org/forum/2042-d...complaint.html
    https://www.rtiindia.org/forum/1872-f...tion-18-a.html
    <o></o>
    4. In the prayer or plea in Second Appeal, you can ask for:
    <o></o>
    <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->CIC should direct the PIO to give all information you requested in original RTI Application
    <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->CIC should direct PIO to give you print out of the computer data as well as photocopies of the pages you ask
    <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->All information should be provided to you Free of Charge under Sec 7(6)
    Any charges paid by you till date should be refunded by the Public Authority
    <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->PIO should be penalized under Sec 20 for delay in providing information at the rate of Rs. 250 per day (subject to maximum of Rs 25,000.00) under Sec 20 (1)
    <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->Disciplinary action under Sec 20(2)
    <o></o>
    5. There is no limit on the number of pages in Second Appeal.
    Please try to make the appeal easily understandable and give all details chronologically.
    <o></o>
    For further details, please read the following thread BEFORE drafting out the Second Appeal, so as to avoid disappointment at a later stage:
    <o></o>https://www.rtiindia.org/forum/1089-c...ns-2007-a.html

  3. #3

    Re: Help in filing Second Appeal / Complaint


    Dear Karira,

    Thanks for your detailed response.

    Just before I found this Forum, I was about to go ahead with filing my Second Appeal before the CIC. Now I realise that I was leaving some week points and formalities, so my case would have become week. I am glad that I did not hurry. Now, coming to your post (in blue colour) ...

    You have already made a complaint to CIC under Sec 18. Based on this, CIC gave an order and further developments took place as highlighted by you in Serial Nr. 3 onwards.

    1. In your initial complaint to the CIC, did you "pray" for:
    - Information to be given to you free of charge since the mandatory
    time limit of 30 days was over
    - Penalty on the PIO at the rate of Rs 250 per day for the delay in reply to you (10 days and 60 days for the two replies sent by PIO) ?

    Yes, I did committed a procedural lapse out of ignorance. This resulted in avoidable delay. Here is how I filed my Complaint u/s 18(1):

    1. 23-2-2007: I filed application under RTI
    2. 19-3-2007: PIO says my request in process in concerned unit
    3. 4-4-2007: (received on 12-4-2007) PIO's reply, is incomplete/false
    4. 17-4-2007: I requested to PIO to provide info on remaining points
    5. 21-5-2007: I remind PIO by email
    6. 26-5-2007 (received on 9-6-2007) PIO gave some more info, but it is still incomplete, false and misleading. He says it is 'final reply' and do not indicate the further course of action available to me.
    7. 5-7-2007: I filed "Application u/s 18(1)" before CIC.

    As can be seen, I skipped First Appeal out of ignorance.

    From the CIC decision, it looks as if you did not specifically "pray" for these two. Normally in such cases (if you see some other CIC decisions), CIC specifically mentions in its orders:
    - Information to be given free of charge
    - Penalty
    - Appellant can come back to the CIC after the final information is given, in case he is still not satisfied with the reply of PIO.

    I specifically requested CIC under the para "Ground for Prayer or Relief" that information may be provided to me free u/s 7(6) and penalty be imposed u/s 20(1) and disciplinary proceedings be ordered against PIO u/s 20(2). However, it seems, I was not exactly on the right track because I made my application u/s 18(1).

    2. The time limit that you are asking about is only applicable if you go in for Second Appeal under Sec 19(3).
    This depends on whether the AA's orders were communicated to you or not ? Did he pass any speaking orders ? Was any reference made to the AA's orders in the subsequent communications of the PIO/APIO....?
    If the answer is NO, then as a applicant you can safely assume that the AA did not deal with your case.
    In such a case you can directly go for complaint under Section 18 (in spite of using this route once already). There is no time limit under Sec 18.

    On the other hand , if the AA has heard your case (and you were informed about the AA's decision directly or via the PIO), then go for Second Appeal under Sec 19(3)...which allows 90 days from the date information actually received (which is 25 Feb 2008 in your case).

    Till I approached CIC, I did not avail my First Appeal. I was heard by IC and he observed my I was not able to properly form my questions. He said, however, he would not reject my application totally and passed Decision dated 7-12-2007 stating that applicant may seek inspection of documents to identify the exact information required by him. CIC also ordered PIO to give me a survey report within 15 working days.

    Therefore, do not worry about time limit irrespective of whether you are invoking Sec 18 or Sec 19...since in both the situations you are within limits.

    PIO did not provide me the said survey report within 15 days. Then, on 28-12-2007 I wrote to PIO to expedite the survey report and also gave him the list of documents to be made available for inspection. However, PIO did not gave me the survey report, not inspection of documents was arranged till 18-1-2007.

    I addressed to AA with subject "First Appeal" (Section 19(1) was not quoted explicitly, but "First Appeal" was mentioned in subject line) on 18-1-2007. On this date the PIO is clear defaulter of not providing me the survey report, but it is still short of one month since I gave him the list of documents for inspection (i.e. on 28-12-2007).

    Now, can I plead that my First Appeal was valid. I may also mention that I did not file a fresh request for information (inspection of documents) by paying Application Fee afresh, but quoted the Decision of CIC for my request for inspection of documents. The purpose of this inspection was only to identify the documents that would answer my quries dated 23-2-2007 and also to establish that the partial information given to me already was correct/true.

    <O></O>
    4. In the prayer or plea in Second Appeal, you can ask for:
    <O></O>
    (1) CIC should direct the PIO to give all information you requested in original RTI Application
    (2) CIC should direct PIO to give you print out of the computer data as well as photocopies of the pages you ask
    (3) All information should be provided to you Free of Charge under Sec 7(6)
    (4) Any charges paid by you till date should be refunded by the Public Authority
    (5) PIO should be penalized under Sec 20 for delay in providing information at the rate of Rs. 250 per day (subject to maximum of Rs 25,000.00) under Sec 20 (1)
    (6) Disciplinary action under Sec 20(2)
    <O></O>

    Now I can understand the use of para (6) and (7). What do you think of following:

    (6) Prayer or relief Sought
    1. It is prayed that under Rule 16 (ii) of Regulations, I may be allowed to be present during the haring of the appeal
    2. Under Section 18(3) or RTI and under Rule 18 of Regulations, order the presence of:
    (i) Nodal Officer - he denied me printout/photocopy on the pretext that he was not authorised to collect fee for providing printouts, even though I was entitled to receive the copies free of cost u/s 7(6). He also claimed that some other documents requested by me are untraceable.
    (ii) Officer XYZ (APIO under RTI Act) - He claimed that printout of information displayed on computer screen can not be given. He also claimed that irrelevent information given to me as a part of the information is satisfactory enough for that part of information (my claim is that it is entirely irrelevant to the context). He may be directed to produce the said information (which was shown to me but copies not given) before the CIC.
    (iii) Officer ABC - This officer has carried out the said survey, but a copy of the survey was not given to me.
    (iv) Officer PQR - This officer has made a file notings based on survey report, which has been provided to me with claim that this is the survey report. I suspect that these remarks on the file are manipulated and not based on the report submitted by 'Officer ABC'. Also, the concerned file wherein the said survey was ordered and its report discussed be also produced before CIC.
    (v) Other points as suggested above.

    (7) Ground for the Prayer or Relief
    (i) Penalty on PIO u/s 20(1) - as suggested above
    (ii) Disciplinary proceedings against PIO u/s 20(2) - as suggested above.

    One more question. The Regulations say that the language of Appeal/Complaint should be formal. What do you say if I include a para like the following (as my case is against a phone company):

    The attitude of the Public Authority has all along remained like - "We don't care. We don't have to. We are the Phone Company." Hyperlink to text: SNL Transcripts: Lily Tomlin: 09/18/76: The Phone Company, Hyperlink to video: The Blueprint: We Don't Care.... We're the Phone Company.
    Once the above doubts are cleared, I intend to file the Second Appeal in about two weeks time.

    Thanks again for your help and patience with the very long post.

    Naresh Kumar Saini

  4. #4
    Posts
    44,512
    Name:
    C J Karira
    Blog Entries
    9
    Rep Power
    553


    Naresh,

    I think better to forget the past. After all, we cannot do much about it except learn from the experience.

    1. Please remember that under the RTI Act, it is the responsibility of the PIO (or the "deemed" PIO) to provide you the requested information. Other officers/staff might accompany you during inspection, etc. but the ultimate responsibility is of the PIO.
    Therefore, just think it over whether you want to "pray" for all those officers to be summoned to CIC during the hearing. Otherwise all looks OK.

    2. Clearly mention (in a tabular form) the chronology of events from 23/2/07 to 5/7/07 in the appeal and highlight the fact that you tried your best to reason with the PIO inspite of him having overshot the time limit. State this verbally also, during your presentation (if you get a chance). This will help you get a few brownie points.

    3. Mention about your First Appeal as a genuine appeal. After all you indicated that on the subject line and addressed it correctly to the AA. This is necessary because unless CIC is made aware of it, they might just get more confused. It might turn out that the PIO infact sent you further communication only when the AA reminded him of it (although nothing was communicated to you).

    4. Ground for appeal and "prayer" are OK (except for presence). I suggest that "grounds" come before the "prayer".

    =============================================================

    I really do not know the subject matter of your RTI Application, but from the CIC decision I can see that it has something to do with SMS services on Garuda WLL by MTNL. I know little bit about that (technically and commercially) so if you need anything send me a pm or email. There were tremendous compatibility issues with SMS between networks with both Garuda (MTNL) and Tarang (BSNL).

    Sorry, just one more point...although you can decide whether to mention summons for all those officers or not...but definitely mention the incidents that you highlighted with each of the officers......especially the "cannot print from computer screen" part....maybe keyboard does not have "print screen" button !

  5. #5

    Re: Help in filing Second Appeal / Complaint


    Dear Karira,

    Thanks again for your help (and sorry for delay in this post).

    Now I am more confident how to proceed ahead with my Second Appeal. Surely, this Forum in general and your help in particular has helped me in gaining this confidence.

    Now I will clearly mention all the events since I filed my Application under RTI (earlier I was thinking of just mentioning that details of events up to my Complaint to CIC are already available with CIC), even though it will make the Second Appeal a bit bulky. This will prove that PIO resorted to popular bureacratic ticks such as (a) sending back-dated letters, (b) rather than giving me a direct reply, just forwarding me copies of notes/letters received from internal units/departments (with a view to share the blame of providing incorrect & incomplete information in case need arise at some point of time). But I think RTI Act do not tolerate such tactics. It is evident, and can be proved easily, that PIO was aware that whatever information he was giving was incorrect and incomplete. PIO is bound to give correct information even it is potentially embarassing for the Public Authority.

    You mentioned that it may be proper to pray for all the officers be summoned before CIC. I think it is better for two reasons. (1) Somehow, they have called 'apple' as 'banana' and want me to believe it. I will ask them, through the CIC, the prove the same before the CIC as well (i.e. prove that whatever information they provided was relevant to my quries). (2) Generally officers in Govt office become very indifferent to the genuine grievances of the common public. It is only when they feel the heat, they move and take some action. It is easy for them to tell an individual that "print out of computer screen can not be given" or "I am not authorised to collect payment under RTI Act so I can't give the photocopy" but when it comes to testifying such statements before a legal authority, they start speaking the truth.

    I am aware that quite often RTI Act is used/miscused for frivolous purpose or to settle personal scores, which ultimately harm the cause for which the Act was created. But I assure that my only purpose is to bring about transparancy over a cloudy issue and seek information that I need.

    I am afraid I am still not very clear about the two terms "Prayer or Relief Sougth" and "Grounds for Prayer or Relief. "Prayer" may be what I want the CIC to do, i.e. to order the PIO or give me the full and correct information and impose penalty on him for his neglect. "Grounds" may be the Sections of RTI Act on which my Prayer is based. Can you please clarify the issue.


    Naresh Kumar Saini

  6. #6
    Posts
    44,512
    Name:
    C J Karira
    Blog Entries
    9
    Rep Power
    553

    Re: Help in filing Second Appeal / Complaint


    Quote Originally Posted by nksaini View Post
    Dear Karira,

    You mentioned that it may be proper to pray for all the officers be summoned before CIC. I think it is better for two reasons. (1) Somehow, they have called 'apple' as 'banana' and want me to believe it. I will ask them, through the CIC, the prove the same before the CIC as well (i.e. prove that whatever information they provided was relevant to my quries). (2) Generally officers in Govt office become very indifferent to the genuine grievances of the common public. It is only when they feel the heat, they move and take some action. It is easy for them to tell an individual that "print out of computer screen can not be given" or "I am not authorised to collect payment under RTI Act so I can't give the photocopy" but when it comes to testifying such statements before a legal authority, they start speaking the truth.....................................

    I am afraid I am still not very clear about the two terms "Prayer or Relief Sougth" and "Grounds for Prayer or Relief. "Prayer" may be what I want the CIC to do, i.e. to order the PIO or give me the full and correct information and impose penalty on him for his neglect. "Grounds" may be the Sections of RTI Act on which my Prayer is based. Can you please clarify the issue.


    Naresh Kumar Saini
    There is no harm in:

    1. Quoting/mentioning/summoning all the officers that you mentioned.
    In any case they are located in Delhi itself...so can come to CIC easily.
    2. You are absolutely correct about "grounds...." and "prayer...."



About RTI INDIA

    RTI INDIA: Invoking Your Rights. We provide easy ways to request, analyze & share Government documents by use of Right to Information and by way of community support.

Follow us on

Twitter Facebook Apple App Store Google Play for Android