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  1. #49
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    shrigopal
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    Re: CIC directs PIO to file case against Appellant


    Let them do their work and let us do our work,It is we the people of India who have to change the corrupt system against the wishes of those trying their best to keep the status quo.


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  2. #50
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    Shekhar
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    Re: CIC directs PIO to file case against Appellant


    I have not really understood the direction of Mr Karira...

    Does he wish to protect the attitude of the ICs and IOs or encourage the activists of RTI?

    It was the same attitude that was adapted by many intellectuals when Gandhiji had started non co-operation movement against 150 yrs old British regime. But it was the same movement that brought the almighty British jack down.

    Please therefore realise the strength of unity and univocal demands made by the selfless activists. It was one Mr Anna Hazare, a single selfless citizen who embarked upon the Maharashtra Government to enact RTI Act for the first time in this country in 2002. After the runaway success in Maharashtra, union government also enacted this law as a central act. I therefore reiterate that the misconceptions and malpractices in the system must be brought out in open so as to prohibit the same. This would certainly be a great strength and success of the present blog.

    So please do not undervalue the strength of the pen [Now Keyboard and blogs - Remember of Shashi Tharur]. Any thing and every thing is possible.

    Coming to the main issue.

    I demand that like the provision in the Consumer Protection Act, the benches of RTI also should comprise of
    A] One retired Judge - Not lower than the bench in question [Viz. For State commission: High Court & for Central Commission: Supreme Court]
    B] One retired Gazeted officer
    C] One RTI Activist

    To decide the appeals / complaints lodged with the respective authorities.

  3. #51
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    Atul Patankar
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    Re: CIC directs PIO to file case against Appellant


    Quote Originally Posted by gnp.group View Post
    I have not really understood the direction of Mr Karira...
    Does he wish to protect the attitude of the ICs and IOs or encourage the activists of RTI?

    So please do not undervalue the strength of the pen [Now Keyboard and blogs ........].
    No one here is justifying ICs behaviour, the least of all Mr. Karira. He has been at the forefront of fighting this attitude. His direction is clearly expressed by him
    Instead of wasting time, energy and effort in complaining, complaining and complaining some more, think positively of some ways of a counter strategy and tackling the situation.
    .

    And no one who is active on this blog can underestimate pen or keyboard - else how can one spend time on a blog to help people one has never seen?

  4. #52
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    Re: CIC directs PIO to file case against Appellant



    I am not in a position to suscribe to the views of Mr. karira.
    No legal act is final in itself ,there is scope of improvement which is achieved as and when need is felt by suitable ammendments./additions /substitution.
    Now after experience of about five yrs. ,it is felt that system of appeals against the inconsistent orders of Sics/Cics may be provided in the Rti act/rules so that they dont escape from the legal scrutiny and it becomes the duty of every activist of this and similar such forums to work in this direction.,so that rti enactment done after persistent public demand may not go in the dust bin.
    I voulnteer myself to work in this direction if any organisation come foreard for this purpose,.
    K.K.Jandial

  5. #53
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    C J Karira
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    Re: CIC directs PIO to file case against Appellant


    Mr Shekhar and Mr Jandial,

    Thanks for your disagreement. That is the advantage of a forum like this so that a multitude and plurality of views are available to everyone for discussion.

    I have personally gone through the phases that you are presently going through as well as seen many others also going through those phases. Some are still stuck in that groove. No harm in keep trying.

    The Indian system (and mentality) by nature, is "reactive" rather than "proactive". We will buy fire engines when there are already too many fires burning. We will build more roads when there are too many cars already, etc.

    Taking from this cue, I feel that the best way to beat the system is to use the system itself. There is enough juice in the RTI Act itself to beat the CIC/SIC/IC's at their own game. So, rather than complaining, I am now concentrating on:

    1. Encouraging more and more citizens to file RTI applications so that may be as a result more and more PIO's are forced to delay information beyond 30 days. One day will then come when all appeals before the IC "pray" for penalty. Then how and where can the IC escape ? How many PIo's can he allow to go scot free ?

    2. Educating and training those who have already filed more than 5 RTI applications, in facing first appellate authorities and filing water tight first appeals. Imagine if the FAA is faced with 10 First Appeals a day (due to increasing number of PIO's delaying/rejecting information) and 10 appellants a day who have water tight cases, where will the FAA escape ?

    3. Advanced training to those experienced with sufficient first appeals experience, in presenting and arguing second appeals/complaints. If each one who appears before a IC presents a logical, legal water tight case with enough citations of the IC himself, where can he escape? Here the appellants have to first prepare themselves to the hilt, do sufficient homework and be "brave" (read "obstinate", "persistent" and "shameless").

    On this board and off the board (by phone and email) I get at least 10 complaints a day saying: IC did not do this, IC did not do that, CIC is like this, SIC is like that, etc. I take a cue from John F Kennedy's famous quote: Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. So I ask them:

    Arey baba, I know IC did not do this or that, but tell me what did you do correctly ?

    I can assure you that in 95% of the cases the matter would have ended differently if the appellant/complainant had followed a few easy steps right from the RTI application stage. Most of them stand before the IC's chamber thinking that there is a GOD sitting inside who will solve all their problems in the next 10 minutes or so ! Have they prepared properly ? Have they read that IC's orders against the PA with whom they have the matter to argue ? Have they read orders/citations of similar cases or issues passed by other IC's and Courts ? When you go to a proper Court, you hire a lawyer. Don't you try to hire a good lawyer ? Does'nt he do home work and prepare the case or has his juniors prepare the matter for him ? When anyone appears personally before CIC/SIC how much effort does he put in ? There are people who complain about IC's orders when they did not even bother to go for the hearing ! (Now you have Audio and Video conferencing - so you cannot even complain about extra expenses).

    Now you tell me, is this a better way or is is just complaining going to solve the issue ?

    Both of you frankly tell me, for how long have you been complaining like this and what have you achieved by such complaining till now ? Have you changed any IC's attitude ? His way of functioning ? Has anyone in the Government noticed your complaints, leave alone take action on them ? What has happened to your suggestions ? Have any been implemented ?

    By following my way, I have made at least 100 people on this forum itself to be successful appellants/complainants. Imagine what will the IC do if he faces 20 such prepared appellants every day ? I will tell you what will happen - no retired bureaucrat will ever like to take up the IC's job - it will be like a crown of thorns. (Just like we read in the papers that so and so IAS officer did not take up the assignment and went on long leave because it was not up to his "stature" or "lucrative").

    But, at the cost of repeating myself, each has his own view. Just keep trying.

    =====

    Mr Shekhar,

    Regarding your suggestion of having a 3 member panel to decide second appeals/complaints, we need no Einstein to handle such a job. I am sure you have read the RTI act. What is there in those 31 sections that you cannot understand ? Just read it a few times everyday and after a week you also will be qualified enough to become a good IC. The IC has to only decide within the parameters of Sec 18, 19, 20. He has to know Sec 4, 5, 6 , 7, 8, 10 and 11. The definitions in Sec 2 can be referred to, by him, by opening the relevant page. So that makes it a total of 10 sections he has to be well versed in. What is so difficult in that ? But, it is difficult to find a suitable IC because they are not passionate about their work, they are not balanced in their opinion and approach the whole matter from a biased manner. Whether you have a single IC, or a 3 IC bench, how will that overcome this issue ? It will only lead to more acrimony.

    We already have a RTI Activist as an IC and you see some of the reactions to his orders in this forum - and let me assure you this forum consists of a majority of pro RTI people !

    In the APSIC we have a IC who was one of the top lawyers of the State. In one of his recent orders, he interpreted Sec 6(3) (transfer to another public authority) as "public authority" in singular and not in plural - thus implying that the PIO is obligated to transfer the RTI application under Sec 6(3) to only one PA and not to many PA's ! DoPT promptly picked up the order and also issued a circular based on it ! Now, what use is having a lawyer as a IC, when even a non legal background member of this forum quoted a General Clauses Act, and pointed out what exactly it says:

    In all Central Acts and Regulations, unless there is anything repugnant in the subject or context, words importing the masculine gender shall be taken to include females, and words in the singular shall include the plural, and vice versa.

    We have a RTI Act and a system to go with it - good or bad. Let us at least give it a chance before talking of changes or amendments. I repeat, there is enough juice in it which can still be squeezed out.
    Last edited by karira; 13-01-10 at 12:03 AM.
    Twitter: @cjkarira

  6. #54
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    rajendra bakre
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    Re: CIC directs PIO to file case against Appellant


    Excellent! A very good sermon.

    Not criticising the complaining RTIians but explaining them another method does exist and can be used successfully.

    I am one of the members trained by Karira.

    I have successfully used this method. In my very first second appeal I had gone through literally hundreds of previous CIC decisions, HC judgements, behaviour of the particular IC who would be hearing my appeal and so on.

    Because of this preparation I was not caught on wrong foot in the appeal. I already had anticipated how the IC would behave in the hearing and hence had a counter strategy to catch the IC himself on wrong foot. The result is too obvious. IC ordered to supply the info along with penalty notice.

  7. #55
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    shrigopal
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    Re: CIC directs PIO to file case against Appellant


    The prime minister's office refused to forward my RTI application on the same plea that it pertains to more than one public authority,same was the attitude of first appellate authority,I have filed the matter in second appeal.

  8. #56
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    Name:
    BHAGAT SINGH
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    Re: CIC directs PIO to file case against Appellant


    the link provided in the post is not opening the file.
    please help. i want to read the full decision.

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